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Left Boob Oscillator
Left Boob Oscillator
1371 posts

Re: Jesus

whisperscream wrote:
Mars Rover wrote:
whisperscream wrote:
When you take the blame for something that a friend did because you would rather feel the pain of the retribution than to see your friend hurt, that was the example that Jesus set. Science cannot replicate that.


That is just being a kind hearted individual. You are placing your own biases on the situation.




I understand what you mean, but my judgement is not clouded because I use examples from the stories in the Bible to illustrate my points? My decisions in life especially in situations envolving people's feelings are made based upon the teachings of religions whether it be Christianity or Buddhism for that matter. Most other decisions made are based upon my love of science.


Whisperscream, Rover is displaying his bias as well. He is unwilling to admit that Jesus can be a teacher. He wants to reduce the importance of Jesus's teachings in your life by saying that you are "just being kind-hearted."

Sep 18, 2009, 21:08


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Left Boob Oscillator
Left Boob Oscillator
1371 posts

Re: Jesus

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Sep 18, 2009, 21:12


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c in dc
c in dc
1032 posts

Re: Jesus



Sep 18, 2009, 21:13


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Labhead
Labhead
1868 posts

Re: Jesus

Left Boob Oscillator wrote:

Likewise, when you look at your own physical body, you can't rely on your eyes alone and say that your body exists only on one level. We have astral, mental, etheric, and spiritual bodies as well.

Everything exists on more than one level. The many things are one thing.



Ah-HA! See, right here you're agreeing with something I believe in... that what we know is subject to our perceptions and "tools", such as our senses of seeing/hearing/touching/feeling, etc. Our senses can lie to us, we can't trust our senses 100%, right? Yet, you pray or whatever and "feel" god and therefore put your faith in the ideas that have no proof other than your feelings and perceptions. Who's the one that relies too much upon themselves? I don't think it's us agnostic atheists, that's for sure.

Also, I'm well aware that science is ever evolving, isn't perfect, and some mistakes are made along the way... but those mistakes are eventually discovered and modified until they are near-perfect. Even then, like with gravity, scientists don't claim perfection so they call it a "theory" even though it's damn-near factual because even they realize that there might be some small detail or twist that they haven't accounted for.

Sep 18, 2009, 21:18


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Left Boob Oscillator
Left Boob Oscillator
1371 posts

Re: Jesus

Labhead wrote:

Ah-HA! See, right here you're agreeing with something I believe in... that what we know is subject to our perceptions and "tools", such as our senses of seeing/hearing/touching/feeling, etc. Our senses can lie to us, we can't trust our senses 100%, right? Yet, you pray or whatever and "feel" god and therefore put your faith in the ideas that have no proof other than your feelings and perceptions. Who's the one that relies too much upon themselves? I don't think it's us agnostic atheists, that's for sure.


Let me tell you a little about faith and what it means. When St. Paul wrote to the Hebrews he defined faith as "the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen." He was referring to a belief of the Jewish sages that when something is created, the creation happens on different levels. They believed in four levels of creation: spiritual, creative, formative and material. Faith is knowing that something has been created even though it has not reached the material stage of creation yet.

I don't think of prayer as a means of "feeling God." I don't rely on perceptions when I am praying. I try to let the universe pray through me, so that whatever needs to happen to a person or situation can happen. I try to step out of the way entirely. Sometimes what is ultimately good for us is very painful in the here and now. And sometimes (maybe even for a lifetime) we have no perception of God at all.

Sep 18, 2009, 21:36


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Labhead
Labhead
1868 posts

Re: Jesus

Left Boob Oscillator wrote:
Labhead wrote:

Ah-HA! See, right here you're agreeing with something I believe in... that what we know is subject to our perceptions and "tools", such as our senses of seeing/hearing/touching/feeling, etc. Our senses can lie to us, we can't trust our senses 100%, right? Yet, you pray or whatever and "feel" god and therefore put your faith in the ideas that have no proof other than your feelings and perceptions. Who's the one that relies too much upon themselves? I don't think it's us agnostic atheists, that's for sure.


Let me tell you a little about faith and what it means. When St. Paul wrote to the Hebrews he defined faith as "the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen." He was referring to a belief of the Jewish sages that when something is created, the creation happens on different levels. They believed in four levels of creation: spiritual, creative, formative and material. Faith is knowing that something has been created even though it has not reached the material stage of creation yet.

I don't think of prayer as a means of "feeling God." I don't rely on perceptions when I am praying. I try to let the universe pray through me, so that whatever needs to happen to a person or situation can happen. I try to step out of the way entirely. Sometimes what is ultimately good for us is very painful in the here and now. And sometimes (maybe even for a lifetime) we have no perception of God at all.


Sounds like a great way for cults to get started. After all, faith is what you hope for with zero evidence, huh? Gee, I can think of lots of things to hope for... I have faith that I will get a flying hoverboard with 40 virgins attached that has already been created in the Flying Spaghetti Monster netherworld. Don't tell me it doesn't exist, I know it does, I have faith!

I've heard a lot of folks who believe say that their "proof" comes from feeling a connection with their god through prayer, etc, that's why I brought up the point of the power of feelings. I read an interesting article a year or two ago where scientists were able to reproduce the "out-of-body" and spiritual feeling that people get during prayer and meditation. They acheived and reproduced this while monitoring brain waves and noticing that when people pray and meditate, many parts of the brain shut down/turned off, kinda like when we sleep at night. So, yeah, when you pray or meditate, your mind is entering a dream-like state, so of course people will have goofy thoughts and feelings, but they're no different than dreaming in reality. I'm sure it's theraputic, though, and that's why us agnostics and atheists should probably find another outlet such as yoga or enjoying a sunny nap on a nice summer day.

Sep 18, 2009, 23:02


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Left Boob Oscillator
Left Boob Oscillator
1371 posts

Re: Jesus

Labhead wrote:

Sounds like a great way for cults to get started. After all, faith is what you hope for with zero evidence, huh? Gee, I can think of lots of things to hope for... I have faith that I will get a flying hoverboard with 40 virgins attached that has already been created in the Flying Spaghetti Monster netherworld. Don't tell me it doesn't exist, I know it does, I have faith!

I've heard a lot of folks who believe say that their "proof" comes from feeling a connection with their god through prayer, etc, that's why I brought up the point of the power of feelings. I read an interesting article a year or two ago where scientists were able to reproduce the "out-of-body" and spiritual feeling that people get during prayer and meditation. They acheived and reproduced this while monitoring brain waves and noticing that when people pray and meditate, many parts of the brain shut down/turned off, kinda like when we sleep at night. So, yeah, when you pray or meditate, your mind is entering a dream-like state, so of course people will have goofy thoughts and feelings, but they're no different than dreaming in reality. I'm sure it's theraputic, though, and that's why us agnostics and atheists should probably find another outlet such as yoga or enjoying a sunny nap on a nice summer day.


No, faith is not "zero evidence." Faith IS evidence, by definition. Let me give an example. Colonel Sanders has a chicken recipe. He knows that he can use it to make money. Because he has the evidence of his faith, he persists in spite of investors turning him down, until he finally succeeds.

Scoff all you want--go on wishing for your flying hoverboard, but I doubt you will get it...Let me tell you why: It's stupid to have faith in things you know you CAN'T get. Nowhere in St. Paul's definition does he talk about using faith to get ridiculous, nonsensical things that don't exist. We have to cooperate with nature and use our common sense.

As for part of the brain "turning off," they were probably turning off that petty tyrant known as the intellect. I heard it rules the lives of poor atheists.

Sep 18, 2009, 23:24


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GaryB
GaryB
1554 posts

Re: Jesus

Some people believe. Some don't.
Some people have faith. Some don't.

End of. (Period)

Sep 18, 2009, 23:32


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Labhead
Labhead
1868 posts

Re: Jesus

Left Boob Oscillator wrote:
No, faith is not "zero evidence." Faith IS evidence, by definition. Let me give an example. Colonel Sanders has a chicken recipe. He knows that he can use it to make money. Because he has the evidence of his faith, he persists in spite of investors turning him down, until he finally succeeds.

Scoff all you want--go on wishing for your flying hoverboard, but I doubt you will get it...Let me tell you why: It's stupid to have faith in things you know you CAN'T get. Nowhere in St. Paul's definition does he talk about using faith to get ridiculous, nonsensical things that don't exist. We have to cooperate with nature and use our common sense.

As for part of the brain "turning off," they were probably turning off that petty tyrant known as the intellect. I heard it rules the lives of poor atheists.


I disagree. How can pure belief be evidence in and of itself? How many "beliefs" have we all seen that turned out not to be true? If it were evidence, nothing would turn out to not be true.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith
Definition: "firm belief in something for which there is no proof"

Colonel Sanders used his intellect, not faith. He knows chicken is tasty, he knows his secret recipe is tasty because all his friends/family said so, and he knows people need to eat. He knows he has a plan. We all know that you are likely to succeed if you have a good plan and don't give up. None of this is attributed to spiritual or other non-tangeable things, it's pure business. The KFC outlets didn't magically appear from water or drop from heaven, it came from hard work.

I think the concept of god that most subscribe to is completely ridiculous and nonsensical, so I don't really see the difference between believing in god or a purple polka-dotted flying elephant.

I take no offense to being ruled by intellect. It drives everything, even emotions. After all, if you lose your brain, you'll lose your emotions and all other thoughts as well.

Sep 18, 2009, 23:40


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Left Boob Oscillator
Left Boob Oscillator
1371 posts

Re: Jesus

What you're not getting is that the Judeo-Christian idea of faith is based on the notion of creation, and of us being co-creators with the Logos (Christ), the divine Word from which all things come. Colonel Sanders had a picture or an idea of a chain of KFC stores in his mind, and he knew what steps to take to allow this picture to manifest on the material plane. Yet, our ideas originate on the spiritual level. The substance of that mental picture was Colonel's evidence that he would succeed. Faith is a substance. This substance is likely identical with the prima materia (first matter) of the alchemists.

Sep 19, 2009, 00:30

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