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Re: Jesus

Left Boob Oscillator wrote:
Labhead wrote:

Ah-HA! See, right here you're agreeing with something I believe in... that what we know is subject to our perceptions and "tools", such as our senses of seeing/hearing/touching/feeling, etc. Our senses can lie to us, we can't trust our senses 100%, right? Yet, you pray or whatever and "feel" god and therefore put your faith in the ideas that have no proof other than your feelings and perceptions. Who's the one that relies too much upon themselves? I don't think it's us agnostic atheists, that's for sure.

Let me tell you a little about faith and what it means. When St. Paul wrote to the Hebrews he defined faith as "the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen." He was referring to a belief of the Jewish sages that when something is created, the creation happens on different levels. They believed in four levels of creation: spiritual, creative, formative and material. Faith is knowing that something has been created even though it has not reached the material stage of creation yet.

I don't think of prayer as a means of "feeling God." I don't rely on perceptions when I am praying. I try to let the universe pray through me, so that whatever needs to happen to a person or situation can happen. I try to step out of the way entirely. Sometimes what is ultimately good for us is very painful in the here and now. And sometimes (maybe even for a lifetime) we have no perception of God at all.

Sounds like a great way for cults to get started. After all, faith is what you hope for with zero evidence, huh? Gee, I can think of lots of things to hope for... I have faith that I will get a flying hoverboard with 40 virgins attached that has already been created in the Flying Spaghetti Monster netherworld. Don't tell me it doesn't exist, I know it does, I have faith!

I've heard a lot of folks who believe say that their "proof" comes from feeling a connection with their god through prayer, etc, that's why I brought up the point of the power of feelings. I read an interesting article a year or two ago where scientists were able to reproduce the "out-of-body" and spiritual feeling that people get during prayer and meditation. They acheived and reproduced this while monitoring brain waves and noticing that when people pray and meditate, many parts of the brain shut down/turned off, kinda like when we sleep at night. So, yeah, when you pray or meditate, your mind is entering a dream-like state, so of course people will have goofy thoughts and feelings, but they're no different than dreaming in reality. I'm sure it's theraputic, though, and that's why us agnostics and atheists should probably find another outlet such as yoga or enjoying a sunny nap on a nice summer day.

Sep 18, 2009, 23:02


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