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I LIKE AMERICANS
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Dara
Dara
905 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

lereostab wrote:
I don't swear allegiance to any government or political ideal as I feel that robs me of something, I would do my best to help any one in need regardless of their nationality or politics.

Being a Christian it really boils down to loving my fellow humans as best I can, there is so much suffering in the world and a lot of it seems to be caused by political ideals and greed.

...but imagine if we'd been born in Palestine then our view of the world would be very different indeed, wouldn't it?
Thanks for sharing, kind regards Joe.


No. If YOU had been born in Palestine, YOUR view would be exactly the same as the Israelis - isn't that so?, being a Christian and loving YOUR fellow humans as best YOU can and seeing people as the same whatever their political ideals, greed or religion...

lereostab wrote:
...there is so much suffering in the world and a lot of it seems to be caused by political ideals and greed.


There is a 'so much suffering' in the world caused by religion too - especially if you look to the past, the Christian religion in particular.

Sep 18, 2011, 18:20


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s_lush_s
s_lush_s
7383 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

yes, it would be hard for us to see eye to eye. I was seized by a sentiment of nationality and patriotism and I realized that my citizenship in this day and age may not be based on my birthright; because I had not been the most upstanding citizen therefore I needed to be a better American. I needed to make this a priority and I could not take it for granted.
We don't all have the same experiences and I sense that you can't relate to the gripping feeling of nationality that I'm expressing which really makes me kind of melancholy and truly you don't, you don't understand me at all.

Sep 19, 2011, 01:44


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s_lush_s
s_lush_s
7383 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

please forgive me for flying off the handle and responding. I usually avoid politics, altogether.

Sep 19, 2011, 01:52


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Dara
Dara
905 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

Dara wrote:
There is 'so much suffering' in the world caused by religion too - especially if you look to the past, the Christian religion in particular.


...as the Groop said:

'The meaning of existence
Can't be supplied by religion or ideologies'

Sep 19, 2011, 02:13


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lereostab
lereostab
984 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

No worries, it's alright, take care, Joe.

Sep 19, 2011, 03:50


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hito
hito
1745 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

Dara wrote:


No. If YOU had been born in Palestine, YOUR view would be exactly the same as the Israelis - isn't that so?, being a Christian and loving YOUR fellow humans as best YOU can and seeing people as the same whatever their political ideals, greed or religion...


I don't see why his views would be exactly the same as the Israelis. Being a Christian does not compel somebody to share the views of everybody else. There is no requirement to support oppressive regimes or advocate on behalf of a government. Being a Christian supposedly just requires a person to love their enemy, not agree with them.

Sep 19, 2011, 04:25


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lereostab
lereostab
984 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

I was trying to make a point about the freedoms we have in the U.K. and America, I used Palestine as an example of an indigineous people who have had their freedom and country taken from them by extreme force, so if we had been born in Palestine then we would certainly view the world differently to how we do in the U.K. or America.
Now, do you really think I haven't studied so called Christian history and all the appalling acts of torture and unmentionable evil deeds that have been done in the name of Christ?
as Jesus himself said "many will come in my name, but their hearts will be far from me" evil power seeking men and women have abused and misused the name of Christ for 2000 years, I feel no kinship with these people and never will, I detest violence and so does Jesus clearly through his words, if you care to read them you will see this for yourself.
Jesus didn't come to start a religion, he came to show us how to be reconciled to God unconditionally through love, and to expose the lies and deceit in the world, Jesus hates religion because it keeps people from seeing his love for them, and it blinds them with a load of man made doctrines about keeping rules and religious laws forever telling them that they're not worthy and they must try harder to please God, what rubbish!!
If we simply believe that God loves us and accept that Jesus died in our place and was punished instead of us, then we are restored in to a living relationship with God as our Father.
Who had Jesus killed? the religious system did of course, and that same system exists today in many different guises.
Jesus is not like these T.V. evangelists ripping people off and deceiving them, he speaks the truth, check it out for yourself by reading the gospels.
Religion will always keep people from knowing the true freedom that God offers us by simply trusting in Jesus.
May the road rise to meet you Dara, kind regards, Joe.

Sep 19, 2011, 04:40


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lereostab
lereostab
984 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

Well said Hito, I certainly do not agree with the oppression of any people.
The awful situation in Palestine particularly disturbs me a great deal as so many Christians are backing the Israeli government financially because they believe it's what God wants them to do, I can't begin to describe how this makes me feel as a Christian, appalled to say the least.
I hate being tarred with the same brush but unfortunately it happens a lot, as it seems that most people seem to think that all Christians agree that Israel is special to God, I don't agree with this because as far as I am concerned God shows no favourtism to any people or nation, he loves all equally, so the fact that this terrible persecution of the Palestinian people is being carried out with a lot of Christians saying it's what God wants upsets me terribly, as you may be able to imagine, thanks for your thoughts, Joe.

Sep 19, 2011, 05:58


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Dara
Dara
905 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

lereostab wrote:
The awful situation in Palestine particularly disturbs me a great deal as so many Christians are backing the Israeli government financially because they believe it's what God wants them to do, I can't begin to describe how this makes me feel as a Christian, appalled to say the least.
I hate being tarred with the same brush but unfortunately it happens a lot, as it seems that most people seem to think that all Christians agree that Israel is special to God, I don't agree with this because as far as I am concerned God shows no favourtism to any people or nation, he loves all equally, so the fact that this terrible persecution of the Palestinian people is being carried out with a lot of Christians saying it's what God wants upsets me terribly, as you may be able to imagine, thanks for your thoughts, Joe.


As usual hiro's oversimplistic utopian view of his own rose-tinted world denies the truth recorded in history. I don't agree at all. As usual the Christian view is based on the perceived ability to abdicate resposibility on the basis that feeble minded humans have mis-represented the Christian message of Jesus and the Lord.

Of course I have read the Bible extensively, and many other philosophical and religious works discussing the human significance of such beliefs. I have read world history extensively too.

Most critical historians agree that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer. Judeo-Christianity is a hugely powerful political force in the world today and just as extremist Islam and many other lesser human constructions are creating havoc, misery and oppression, Christianity is also responsible to this day of terrible suffering and oppression. To deny that fact is unworthy of any further serious discussion.

Just like the christian creationists, whatever you say, however you discuss the truth of human and natural history the Christian will try to wriggle free of any reasonable factual discussion using the 'not in my name' excuse. The fact is that it was not so long ago that the Christians themselves were the perpetrators of the violence and suffering in Palestine. It's just a matter of how far back in time you go and where your present-day loyalties lay.

The one thing I agree with you about is that I also think oppression and aggression in the name of god (any god) is one of the worst blights on the human race - and always has been.

By the way - in my version of the Bible, Jesus Christ was not killed by religion. He was in fact killed by the ruling political system at the time after being accused of sedition. Basically, the Roman State saw him as what we would today call a terrorist.

As Roger Waters said: 'What god wants - god gets'.

Sep 19, 2011, 12:00


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lereostab
lereostab
984 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

You've misunderstood who had Jesus killed, the religious Jews of his day i.e. Pharisee's and Saducee's used the Roman ruling authority to execute him simply because they weren't allowed to do it themselves under Roman law, it was the Sanhedrin who wanted him dead for perceived blasphemy and it was these particular Jews who took him to the Roman governor and pressured him to crucify Jesus, Pilate himself was reluctant to do this but eventually gave the Jews what they wanted whilst symbolically washing his hands of the whole matter, these facts are clearly written in the bible so I don't know how you've concluded that it was the Roman authority that wanted him dead??
Also, are you saying that all Christians living now are responsible for the horrific deeds perpetrated in Jesus name in the past i.e. the crusades or witch hunts, because if you are then your argument borders on lunacy. If an Englishman kills his wife does that mean that all Englishmen are wife killers? you need to clarify your point on this matter because it seems like an incredibly narrow view.
I have never killed anyone nor would I wish to, I have never tortured or persecuted anyone in the name of Jesus or anyone's name for that matter, I would rather go to jail than kill someone for any government or ideology so because I believe in Christ am I to blame for any of the horrors being carried out in Palestine today? hope to read your reply soon, Joe.

Sep 19, 2011, 13:00

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