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Dara
Dara
905 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

You forgot the kind regards this time Joe - or is that reserved only for people who agree with your Christian sensibilities?. I merely stated the facts of the matter:

I did not say who was ‘behind’ the killing - but it is a stated fact that they agency responsible for decreeing and carrying out the crucifiction was the Roman state. Jesus was killed by the Roman Authority. This you have stated yourself and I agree:

”lereostab” wrote:
...because they weren’t allowed to do it themselves UNDER ROMAN LAW..

...Also, are you saying that all Christians living now are responsible for the horrific deeds perpetrated in Jesus name in the past i.e. the crusades or witch hunts, because if you are then your argument borders on lunacy..



Again abdicating any responsibility for the horrendous deeds done in the name of Jesus Christ in the past. Radical Islam states that Christians living now are responsible for the crusades and indeed feel that Christians are to this day involved in a crusade in the middle east. To deny that religion is responsible for most of the problems in humanity these days is a naive and narrow minded approach to world politics. But of course those practising the religion would always say it is not their God but the failings and weaknesses of mere mortals - do me a favour.

I did not say that YOU personally were responsible for the horrific deeds etc, I don’t feel you are as you seem to be as much opposed to organised religion as I am. I will say however that I feel that those who adhere devoutly to Christian dogma are now and will always be responsible for the deeds perpetrated by their religion. Christians are responsible NOW for making women suffer the pressure and inhumanity of not having the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy, excluding and oppressing gay and lesbian members of society on the basis that it is regarded as an ‘abomination’ in the bible, discriminating against women in the very administration of the religion in it’s churches etc etc the list is endless if you look closely at the personal human experience of Christianity and most other religions.

I see it is pointless arguing with you about these things - and I knew that already. You can't possibly deny that this is all part of the Christian church today. If you do not agree with these aspects of the Christian Church then you have your own brand of Christianity and perhaps you should pronounce your own 'sermon on the mount' and start your own church - you would not be the first.

Christians will never depart from the fundamental tenets of their religion - and if you ask me, that is not just lunacy it is an absolute tragedy for the human race in terms of the development of knowledge and understanding of our collective reality as humans. Most of the rational thinkers I know would say it was lunacy to believe that the world was made in six days and that the fossil record was buried deliberately in a sinister attempt to deny the religious ‘account’ of the creation, yet all over the Christian world this is taught in schools - in some cases exclusively.

We could play semantic tennis all day Joe - are present day Nazis responsible for the deeds of the Nazis 60 years ago? yes they damn well are - it is the same ideology and given the chance and the support, they would do the same again. I find your closet anti-semitism very disturbing, but not surprising in the current world political view. Let me ask you a few questions Joe - and I will look forward to your reply soon too:

Do you think Israel has the right to exist as a state - especially in it’s current location?.

Do you believe the world was created in six days and deny Darwin’s theory as ‘evil-ution’?

How do you feel about abortion?

Do you think there should be women priests?

Do you believe that homosexuality is a sin and an abomination in the eyes of God as stated in the bible?

Do you believe as I heard a very prominent leader of the Church of England proclaim after 9/11 that as Christians ‘we should kiss the hands of those who killed our children’?

I see that with you as with most Christians in the past and present, the thin veneer of ‘kind regards’ and ‘the milk of human kindness’ soon drops away when there are challenges to your dogma - although you have resorted to insulting rhetoric sooner in the discussion than most Christians I have known I must say - but again, I’m not really surprised.

In the past the dismissive rhetoric against the ‘heathens’ or the contemporary scientific view of existence would have been reinforced with oppression in the case for example of Gallileo, or in the case of the crusades, the sword - and yes, I think that is a huge burden for adherents to any belief system to carry.

Sep 19, 2011, 18:10


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lereostab
lereostab
984 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

Hi, I wasn't sure if kind regards would annoy you or not so I left it out just in case.
What exactly was the "insulting rhetoric" that you feel I resorted to?
Your mind is obviously made up about Christians Dara and how you think they are, so it's pointless me saying much really, I feel that you are asking those particular questions not because you are genuinely interested, but so you can tick all the boxes that write Joe off as the fundamental lunatic you already think he is, and give your self a pat on the back for being right again, I'm happy to be wrong about this.
I will answer your questions.

Yes I do think that Israel has a right to exist as a state, and I think that Palestine does too, I would love to see a final agreement that both sides were happy with regarding distribution of the land in that area.

Creation vs evolution, in all honesty I really do not know how it all happened.

Abortion, this is a difficult question to answer for me as I personally know 2 women who had abortions, one in 1969 and the other in 1988, both these women are very dear to me and both of them deeply regret the experience and find it almost impossible to forgive themselves, one is a Christian and the other is not. You asked what I felt about it, I feel that each woman is uniquely different and should not be forced to do anything she doesn't want to do, but I do also think that more information should be freely available to women who are considering an abortion about the potentially damaging psychological effects that often result from it.

Women priests, I really don't care either way what certain denominations do regarding those matters as I have nothing to do with the organised church, I am not opposed to it.

Homosexuality, I was for many years a practising homosexual myself, when I became a Christian so much changed within me and I saw life and relationships in a totally new light.
I am now heterosexual and happily married and have been for 15 years, the desire to be with other men sexually no longer exists for me.
I won't answer your question about abomination and sin, because as an ex homosexual myself I know how questions like that used to make me feel, basically all people are looking for love deep down and to be accepted for who they are, I personally made a lot of mistakes in my quest for love but how can I say that my mistakes were the same as anyone elses, I believe that sexuality is an individuals private affair and if they become a Christian then it is between them and God what happens next, it's not for me to judge or condemn someone.
I know that God loves homosexuals as much as he loves any human being.

I would find it extremely hard to kiss the hand of someone who killed my children, but I realise the importance of forgiveness too, revenge solves nothing, an eye for an eye is an obsolete concept for me.
I do believe forgiveness is possible and feel it to be the most desirable solution as opposed to revenge, although I say again I would find it extremely difficult in certain tragic situations.

You haven't challenged my "dogma" as you call it in the least, you have done what many people seem to do and judged me simply because I love Jesus, you tar all Christians with the same brush just as I used to do before I became one,
kind regards and God bless you, Joe.

Sep 20, 2011, 00:59


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hito
hito
1745 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

“Christianity is also responsible to this day of terrible suffering and oppression”
So is America, England, Russia, Germany, Anglo Saxon Americans, African Americans, men, alcohol manufacturers and Islam but we cannot criticise all members of these organisations.

“the Christian will try to wriggle free of any reasonable factual discussion”
Well what about you? You were challenged on your claim that Christians would support Israel and resorted to insulting me (calling me “hiro”) and suggesting I was “denying the truth recorded in history” when I never mentioned history. Whenever I challenge your posts, you insult me because you are incapable of arguing against the points that I make. Therefore, it is a bit rich to criticise some Christians’ propensity to avoid factual discussion. The day you respond to one of my posts without attacking me personally is the day you can criticise people for wriggling free of factual discussion.

“You forgot the kind regards this time Joe - or is that reserved only for people who agree with your Christian sensibilities?”
Again, who are you to talk? You have abused me on a number of occasions so who are you to demand a “kind regards”. Practise what you preach. To not say something once is hardly a crime. It appears that you are attacking lereostab in an attempt to smear some mud.

“I did not say that YOU personally were responsible for the horrific deeds etc, I don’t feel you are as you seem to be as much opposed to organised religion as I am... I see it is pointless arguing with you about these things - and I knew that already... Christians will never depart from the fundamental tenets of their religion... Let me ask you a few questions Joe - and I will look forward to your reply soon too”
Make up your mind. To follow this up with a series of questions beggars belief. If you are interested in what lereostab has to say, you should at least present a consistent point of view and appear to be open minded. You should also avoid loaded questions like “Do you believe the world was created in six days and deny Darwin’s theory as ‘evil-ution’?”. Simply ask how lereostab thinks the world was created.

“Most of the rational thinkers I know would say it was lunacy to believe that the world was made in six days and that the fossil record was buried deliberately in a sinister attempt to deny the religious ‘account’ of the creation”
This is one of the worst straw man arguments that I have seen. Whilst some Christians believe that argument, it would be unfair to say that all or even the majority think that way. Believing in creationism does not require a person to have the argument you present. Moreover, it is not necessarily rational to believe in the big bang. Logic could argue for one, the other or even both. No deductively valid argument has been presented against intelligent design so it remains a rational option. It worries me as an atheist or agnostic or whatever (I prefer not to be defined by what I don’t believe) that atheists have become devotees of random chance and evolution as opposed to simply positing it as an option. If history has taught us anything, it is that we can never be sure.

“...yet all over the Christian world this is taught in schools”
This is pure hyperbole.
“when there are challenges to your dogma - although you have resorted to insulting rhetoric sooner in the discussion than most Christians I have known I must say - but again, I’m not really surprised...”
The hypocrisy of these statements is astounding. lereostab has responded politely and openly to your aggressive rhetoric. If anyone is dogmatic, it is you. You are so opposed to Christianity, unable to deal with the intricacies of lereostab’s beliefs and so insulting that you have resorted to arguing with a straw man. I don’t always agree with him but I would say he has conducted himself fairly. If nothing else, his manner is hardly worthy of the negative weight that you have given it.

“In the past the dismissive rhetoric against the ‘heathens’ or the contemporary scientific view of existence would have been reinforced with oppression”
Try this: In the past the dismissive rhetoric against the Christians or the contemporary Christian view of existence would have been reinforced with oppression. Ouch.

I challenge you to deal with the substance of what lereostab or I have said, rather than playing the man or arguing against the archetypal Christian that exists in your head. I challenge you not to respond to my post by calling me “hiro” and criticising some version of me that exists in your mind. I dare you to do that instead of your typical “As I have said ad nauseum - I find your tired and frankly ridiculously naïve views extremely tedious and I have no intention of engaging with you in this subject” whilst engaging with me on the subject.

Sep 20, 2011, 02:38


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Dara
Dara
905 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

lereostab wrote:
What exactly was the "insulting rhetoric" that you feel I resorted to?


You called my point of view 'bordering on lunacy'. A common and all-to-easy way of negating an argument you can not easily refute and de-humanising someone you feel challenged by. It is an easy accusation used throughout the centuries by the Christian religion and many others to oppress and control.

lereostab wrote:
Your mind is obviously made up about Christians Dara and how you think they are, so it's pointless me saying much really, I feel that you are asking those particular questions not because you are genuinely interested, but so you can tick all the boxes that write Joe off as the fundamental lunatic you already think he is, and give your self a pat on the back for being right again, I'm happy to be wrong about this.


I am always open to new ideas and in fact I agree with many things Jesus Chris is believed to have said. The sermon on the mount particularly was really good stuff I always thought. I am asking those questions because I am genuinely interested. I wanted to know how fundamental your belief is - and it appears to be not at all fundamental on most issues. I am now even more interested in your story even though I do think your non-committal consideration of crazy ideas is something I could never respect you for. It is true though that I do have more respect for you generally after reading your impressively candid reply, and I thank you for having the courage to do that in such an open way through a medium which is open to the world.

lereostab wrote:
I will answer your questions.

Yes I do think that Israel has a right to exist as a state, and I think that Palestine does too, I would love to see a final agreement that both sides were happy with regarding distribution of the land in that area.


I agree and so does the present Israeli government. What is stopping talks aimed at achieving this end at the moment is the Palestinians (Hamas and the remnants of Hezbollah)refusing to recognize Israel's right to statehood. As I write this, Israel is offering an outstretched hand but Abbas is still cynically maintaining a belligerent stance and bickering over the minute positions of the border lines.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14981633

lereostab wrote:
Creation vs evolution, in all honesty I really do not know how it all happened.


Sorry mate, that's too easy. You don't strike me as being an idiot and I am certain that you do have a belief in one view. I accept though that this is a music forum and there is a right time and place to discuss these things and maybe this is not it. Because someone asked you a question - you are not obliged to give an answer.

lereostab wrote:
Abortion, this is a difficult question to answer for me as I personally know 2 women who had abortions, one in 1969 and the other in 1988, both these women are very dear to me and both of them deeply regret the experience and find it almost impossible to forgive themselves, one is a Christian and the other is not. You asked what I felt about it, I feel that each woman is uniquely different and should not be forced to do anything she doesn't want to do, but I do also think that more information should be freely available to women who are considering an abortion about the potentially damaging psychological effects that often result from it.


Again - agreed. If by available you mean that they are free to read the 'available information' or not, then also I agree. I don't agree with compulsory 'counselling'. I have also known women who have had abortions and women who have decided to have an abortion in future if they accidentally become pregnant. None have had any problem with this nor have their partners. I must say however, that your views are contrary to orthodox Christian belief, and many Christians would say you either believe the scriptures or not - you can't cherry pick the ones you like and ignore the stuff you don't like.

lereostab wrote:
Women priests, I really don't care either way what certain denominations do regarding those matters as I have nothing to do with the organised church, I am not opposed to it.


Agreed - but again contrary to the Christian - particularly the Catholic faith.

lereostab wrote:
Homosexuality, I was for many years a practising homosexual myself, when I became a Christian so much changed within me and I saw life and relationships in a totally new light. I am now heterosexual and happily married and have been for 15 years, the desire to be with other men sexually no longer exists for me. I won't answer your question about abomination and sin, because as an ex homosexual myself I know how questions like that used to make me feel,


This appears to be a deliberately fuzzy way of saying - Homosexuality is a sin and an abomination in the eyes of God, but if you repent and cease your 'unclean thoughts' and deeds you will receive salvation. Again I was not saying YOU personally felt that way, I asked if you believed what it says in the bible is true, and reading between the lines, it appears that you do. That I feel is a horrendous denial of the beauty of humanity and a brutal oppression of human freedom and I totally detest it.

lereostab wrote:
basically all people are looking for love deep down and to be accepted for who they are, I personally made a lot of mistakes in my quest for love but how can I say that my mistakes were the same as anyone elses,


How do you feel you have the authority to say that so surely?. I know and have known many people who can't be bothered with love - never had it, don't want it. I have also known gay men and lesbians who are only interested in a good fuck and nothing else, as well as many who are indeed looking for love. I have no objection to them finding either as long as they don't kill each other in the process and endanger others too.

lereostab wrote:
I believe that sexuality is an individuals private affair and if they become a Christian then it is between them and God what happens next, it's not for me to judge or condemn someone.
I know that God loves homosexuals as much as he loves any human being.


In the context of Christianity what you say here is nonsense. It also suggests that homosexuality should be kept quiet and never 'flaunted' in the open. Ok so you don't condemn them, it's good to hear that you are not a hypocrite - but again Christianity DOES and in the process causes so much sadness and hurt to so many people. Where did you read 'God loves homosexuals as much as he loves any human being'? - it clearly states in the bible that a man shall not lay with another man and a woman with another woman - how can you say that? - you can make the bible say almost anything if you so wish, but at a certain point it becomes so vague that it loses any sense or integrity.

lereostab wrote:
I would find it extremely hard to kiss the hand of someone who killed my children, but I realise the importance of forgiveness too, revenge solves nothing, an eye for an eye is an obsolete concept for me.
I do believe forgiveness is possible and feel it to be the most desirable solution as opposed to revenge, although I say again I would find it extremely difficult in certain tragic situations.


Your views seem so removed from the fundamental tenets of Christianity that I have to wonder in what way you call yourself a Christian. But then if you love Dots and Loops and absolutely detest Cobra - you can still call yourself a Stereolab fan - right?.

lereostab wrote:
You haven't challenged my "dogma" as you call it in the least, you have done what many people seem to do and judged me simply because I love Jesus, you tar all Christians with the same brush just as I used to do before I became one,


On the contrary, I have challenged your beliefs. I have asked you to state exactly what they are at any rate, and I must say it has felt like talking to a brick wall - a brick wall with a lot of interesting graffiti on it, but a brick wall nevertheless.

I thank you for your openness on some interesting personal issues - I respect your strength and courage in changing your life. I am not sure it was really necessary to divulge all the personal stuff, but if you feel you must then that's also ok with me.

I consider myself a spiritually aware person and I believe that humans do far too much gabbing - words are completely irrelevant in the experience of true spirituality. Far from science being a false god at whose feet all atheists prostrate themselves (to quote you from a previous thread - and with your faith in the effectiveness of the MRI scan it appears you are not averse to a little of it yourself), I think if you take the words and the names out of it all it is possible to see it all as the same subject seen from different perspectives. Even if you keep the words and just jiggle them around a bit - God, Universe, the big bang, the creation, they are all interchangeable to an extent. Humanity has after all always recorded it's experience of the world in allegory along with other literary devices.

Words don't get anywhere near describing what it is all about - ask any astronaut.

Sep 20, 2011, 02:46


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hito
hito
1745 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

Good post.

Just a little add on. I know that culturally, Christians condemn homeosexuality but the bible is full of this kind of thing. Some Christians are hung up on this rule. The bible also forbids polycotton "Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" (Leviticus). I find it amusing that mothers of children who wear windcheaters could stage a protest at thie local parish.

Sep 20, 2011, 03:57


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cyberpainter
cyberpainter
5940 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

My parents are Christians but they aren't fundamentalists and they don't take everything in the bible literally, neither does their minister. You make too many generalizations about "Christianity" and tend to equate it with fundamentalism in many of your points. A lot of democrats are Christians, not that it makes that much of a difference, except they are not part of the old term "moral majority". And there are a huge number of Christians who absolutely do not believe in intelligent design.

Because the republicans, the tea baggers, and the "moral majority" are so vocal and in the media, you may think everyone who's a Christian agrees with them, but you'd be greatly mistaken.

Sep 20, 2011, 04:12


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Dara
Dara
905 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

cyberpainter wrote:
My parents are Christians but they aren't fundamentalists and they don't take everything in the bible literally, neither does their minister. You make too many generalizations about "Christianity" and tend to equate it with fundamentalism in many of your points. A lot of democrats are Christians, not that it makes that much of a difference, except they are not part of the old term "moral majority". And there are a huge number of Christians who absolutely do not believe in intelligent design.

Because the republicans, the tea baggers, and the "moral majority" are so vocal and in the media, you may think everyone who's a Christian agrees with them, but you'd be greatly mistaken.


With respect I don't think all Christians are fundamentalists. I know many Christians and like you I find them to be moderate and humble in their belief - most of the time. It is true however that in many Schools Creationism and Intelligent design is taught as the only basis for existence - particularly in America. Putting a figure on it is very difficult as statistics and opinion polls can be very misleading. But I did read somewhere that a recent Gallup poll reported that the percentage of people in the US that believe in a strict interpretation of creationism had fallen to 40% in 2010 after a high of 46% in 2006. That's 140 million people! at the 2010 population census level. Personally (and I am entitled to my own opinion) I think that is amazing, disappointing and scary.

I would never deny that anyone has the right to practise any religion, but if terrible things are done in the name of that religion or Ideology, then yes I am vehemently opposed to that and will do whatever I can to fight it.

Sep 20, 2011, 04:33


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Cheeso
Cheeso
642 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

Why you mad, hiro?

Sep 20, 2011, 04:38


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cyberpainter
cyberpainter
5940 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

Dara wrote:
It is true however that in many Schools Creationism and Intelligent design is taught as the only basis for existence - particularly in America.


No public school teaches creationism instead of evolution. Some have been allowed to teach it along side.

Check out the wiki article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_and_evolution_in_public_education

Sep 20, 2011, 04:54


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Cheeso
Cheeso
642 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

Dara wrote:
But I did read somewhere that a recent Gallup poll reported that the percentage of people in the US that believe in a strict interpretation of creationism had fallen to 40% in 2010 after a high of 46% in 2006. That's 140 million people! at the 2010 population census level.


Well, they don't poll the everyone in the entire nation.

Sep 20, 2011, 05:05

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