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“Christianity is also responsible to this day of terrible suffering and oppression”
So is America, England, Russia, Germany, Anglo Saxon Americans, African Americans, men, alcohol manufacturers and Islam but we cannot criticise all members of these organisations.

“the Christian will try to wriggle free of any reasonable factual discussion”
Well what about you? You were challenged on your claim that Christians would support Israel and resorted to insulting me (calling me “hiro”) and suggesting I was “denying the truth recorded in history” when I never mentioned history. Whenever I challenge your posts, you insult me because you are incapable of arguing against the points that I make. Therefore, it is a bit rich to criticise some Christians’ propensity to avoid factual discussion. The day you respond to one of my posts without attacking me personally is the day you can criticise people for wriggling free of factual discussion.

“You forgot the kind regards this time Joe - or is that reserved only for people who agree with your Christian sensibilities?”
Again, who are you to talk? You have abused me on a number of occasions so who are you to demand a “kind regards”. Practise what you preach. To not say something once is hardly a crime. It appears that you are attacking lereostab in an attempt to smear some mud.

“I did not say that YOU personally were responsible for the horrific deeds etc, I don’t feel you are as you seem to be as much opposed to organised religion as I am... I see it is pointless arguing with you about these things - and I knew that already... Christians will never depart from the fundamental tenets of their religion... Let me ask you a few questions Joe - and I will look forward to your reply soon too”
Make up your mind. To follow this up with a series of questions beggars belief. If you are interested in what lereostab has to say, you should at least present a consistent point of view and appear to be open minded. You should also avoid loaded questions like “Do you believe the world was created in six days and deny Darwin’s theory as ‘evil-ution’?”. Simply ask how lereostab thinks the world was created.

“Most of the rational thinkers I know would say it was lunacy to believe that the world was made in six days and that the fossil record was buried deliberately in a sinister attempt to deny the religious ‘account’ of the creation”
This is one of the worst straw man arguments that I have seen. Whilst some Christians believe that argument, it would be unfair to say that all or even the majority think that way. Believing in creationism does not require a person to have the argument you present. Moreover, it is not necessarily rational to believe in the big bang. Logic could argue for one, the other or even both. No deductively valid argument has been presented against intelligent design so it remains a rational option. It worries me as an atheist or agnostic or whatever (I prefer not to be defined by what I don’t believe) that atheists have become devotees of random chance and evolution as opposed to simply positing it as an option. If history has taught us anything, it is that we can never be sure.

“...yet all over the Christian world this is taught in schools”
This is pure hyperbole.
“when there are challenges to your dogma - although you have resorted to insulting rhetoric sooner in the discussion than most Christians I have known I must say - but again, I’m not really surprised...”
The hypocrisy of these statements is astounding. lereostab has responded politely and openly to your aggressive rhetoric. If anyone is dogmatic, it is you. You are so opposed to Christianity, unable to deal with the intricacies of lereostab’s beliefs and so insulting that you have resorted to arguing with a straw man. I don’t always agree with him but I would say he has conducted himself fairly. If nothing else, his manner is hardly worthy of the negative weight that you have given it.

“In the past the dismissive rhetoric against the ‘heathens’ or the contemporary scientific view of existence would have been reinforced with oppression”
Try this: In the past the dismissive rhetoric against the Christians or the contemporary Christian view of existence would have been reinforced with oppression. Ouch.

I challenge you to deal with the substance of what lereostab or I have said, rather than playing the man or arguing against the archetypal Christian that exists in your head. I challenge you not to respond to my post by calling me “hiro” and criticising some version of me that exists in your mind. I dare you to do that instead of your typical “As I have said ad nauseum - I find your tired and frankly ridiculously naïve views extremely tedious and I have no intention of engaging with you in this subject” whilst engaging with me on the subject.

Sep 20, 2011, 02:38


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