Forum
#Topics
+Start a topic
?Search __________________________________

-Log In
-Register
I LIKE AMERICANS
Log In to post a reply
91 messages
View: flat \ threaded
________________\________________________________________________\______________________________________

Dara
Dara
905 posts

Re: I LIKE AMERICANS

lereostab wrote:
What exactly was the "insulting rhetoric" that you feel I resorted to?


You called my point of view 'bordering on lunacy'. A common and all-to-easy way of negating an argument you can not easily refute and de-humanising someone you feel challenged by. It is an easy accusation used throughout the centuries by the Christian religion and many others to oppress and control.

lereostab wrote:
Your mind is obviously made up about Christians Dara and how you think they are, so it's pointless me saying much really, I feel that you are asking those particular questions not because you are genuinely interested, but so you can tick all the boxes that write Joe off as the fundamental lunatic you already think he is, and give your self a pat on the back for being right again, I'm happy to be wrong about this.


I am always open to new ideas and in fact I agree with many things Jesus Chris is believed to have said. The sermon on the mount particularly was really good stuff I always thought. I am asking those questions because I am genuinely interested. I wanted to know how fundamental your belief is - and it appears to be not at all fundamental on most issues. I am now even more interested in your story even though I do think your non-committal consideration of crazy ideas is something I could never respect you for. It is true though that I do have more respect for you generally after reading your impressively candid reply, and I thank you for having the courage to do that in such an open way through a medium which is open to the world.

lereostab wrote:
I will answer your questions.

Yes I do think that Israel has a right to exist as a state, and I think that Palestine does too, I would love to see a final agreement that both sides were happy with regarding distribution of the land in that area.


I agree and so does the present Israeli government. What is stopping talks aimed at achieving this end at the moment is the Palestinians (Hamas and the remnants of Hezbollah)refusing to recognize Israel's right to statehood. As I write this, Israel is offering an outstretched hand but Abbas is still cynically maintaining a belligerent stance and bickering over the minute positions of the border lines.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14981633

lereostab wrote:
Creation vs evolution, in all honesty I really do not know how it all happened.


Sorry mate, that's too easy. You don't strike me as being an idiot and I am certain that you do have a belief in one view. I accept though that this is a music forum and there is a right time and place to discuss these things and maybe this is not it. Because someone asked you a question - you are not obliged to give an answer.

lereostab wrote:
Abortion, this is a difficult question to answer for me as I personally know 2 women who had abortions, one in 1969 and the other in 1988, both these women are very dear to me and both of them deeply regret the experience and find it almost impossible to forgive themselves, one is a Christian and the other is not. You asked what I felt about it, I feel that each woman is uniquely different and should not be forced to do anything she doesn't want to do, but I do also think that more information should be freely available to women who are considering an abortion about the potentially damaging psychological effects that often result from it.


Again - agreed. If by available you mean that they are free to read the 'available information' or not, then also I agree. I don't agree with compulsory 'counselling'. I have also known women who have had abortions and women who have decided to have an abortion in future if they accidentally become pregnant. None have had any problem with this nor have their partners. I must say however, that your views are contrary to orthodox Christian belief, and many Christians would say you either believe the scriptures or not - you can't cherry pick the ones you like and ignore the stuff you don't like.

lereostab wrote:
Women priests, I really don't care either way what certain denominations do regarding those matters as I have nothing to do with the organised church, I am not opposed to it.


Agreed - but again contrary to the Christian - particularly the Catholic faith.

lereostab wrote:
Homosexuality, I was for many years a practising homosexual myself, when I became a Christian so much changed within me and I saw life and relationships in a totally new light. I am now heterosexual and happily married and have been for 15 years, the desire to be with other men sexually no longer exists for me. I won't answer your question about abomination and sin, because as an ex homosexual myself I know how questions like that used to make me feel,


This appears to be a deliberately fuzzy way of saying - Homosexuality is a sin and an abomination in the eyes of God, but if you repent and cease your 'unclean thoughts' and deeds you will receive salvation. Again I was not saying YOU personally felt that way, I asked if you believed what it says in the bible is true, and reading between the lines, it appears that you do. That I feel is a horrendous denial of the beauty of humanity and a brutal oppression of human freedom and I totally detest it.

lereostab wrote:
basically all people are looking for love deep down and to be accepted for who they are, I personally made a lot of mistakes in my quest for love but how can I say that my mistakes were the same as anyone elses,


How do you feel you have the authority to say that so surely?. I know and have known many people who can't be bothered with love - never had it, don't want it. I have also known gay men and lesbians who are only interested in a good fuck and nothing else, as well as many who are indeed looking for love. I have no objection to them finding either as long as they don't kill each other in the process and endanger others too.

lereostab wrote:
I believe that sexuality is an individuals private affair and if they become a Christian then it is between them and God what happens next, it's not for me to judge or condemn someone.
I know that God loves homosexuals as much as he loves any human being.


In the context of Christianity what you say here is nonsense. It also suggests that homosexuality should be kept quiet and never 'flaunted' in the open. Ok so you don't condemn them, it's good to hear that you are not a hypocrite - but again Christianity DOES and in the process causes so much sadness and hurt to so many people. Where did you read 'God loves homosexuals as much as he loves any human being'? - it clearly states in the bible that a man shall not lay with another man and a woman with another woman - how can you say that? - you can make the bible say almost anything if you so wish, but at a certain point it becomes so vague that it loses any sense or integrity.

lereostab wrote:
I would find it extremely hard to kiss the hand of someone who killed my children, but I realise the importance of forgiveness too, revenge solves nothing, an eye for an eye is an obsolete concept for me.
I do believe forgiveness is possible and feel it to be the most desirable solution as opposed to revenge, although I say again I would find it extremely difficult in certain tragic situations.


Your views seem so removed from the fundamental tenets of Christianity that I have to wonder in what way you call yourself a Christian. But then if you love Dots and Loops and absolutely detest Cobra - you can still call yourself a Stereolab fan - right?.

lereostab wrote:
You haven't challenged my "dogma" as you call it in the least, you have done what many people seem to do and judged me simply because I love Jesus, you tar all Christians with the same brush just as I used to do before I became one,


On the contrary, I have challenged your beliefs. I have asked you to state exactly what they are at any rate, and I must say it has felt like talking to a brick wall - a brick wall with a lot of interesting graffiti on it, but a brick wall nevertheless.

I thank you for your openness on some interesting personal issues - I respect your strength and courage in changing your life. I am not sure it was really necessary to divulge all the personal stuff, but if you feel you must then that's also ok with me.

I consider myself a spiritually aware person and I believe that humans do far too much gabbing - words are completely irrelevant in the experience of true spirituality. Far from science being a false god at whose feet all atheists prostrate themselves (to quote you from a previous thread - and with your faith in the effectiveness of the MRI scan it appears you are not averse to a little of it yourself), I think if you take the words and the names out of it all it is possible to see it all as the same subject seen from different perspectives. Even if you keep the words and just jiggle them around a bit - God, Universe, the big bang, the creation, they are all interchangeable to an extent. Humanity has after all always recorded it's experience of the world in allegory along with other literary devices.

Words don't get anywhere near describing what it is all about - ask any astronaut.

Sep 20, 2011, 02:46



________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Topic Outline: