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cyberpainter
cyberpainter
5926 posts

Re: Atheism

Mars Rover wrote:
and to quote my favorite philosopher:

"If a voice from the clouds suddenly addressed me, speaking my name in trombone tones, or some angel suddenly addressed me in an aura of blue flame came floating toward me...I think I would be more embarrassed than frightened --frightened by the vulgarity of such a display. That is what depresses me about the mysticism of Carlos Castaneda and his like: their poverty of imagination. As any honest magician knows, true magic inheres in the ordinary, the commonplace, the everyday, the mystery of the obvious. Only petty minds and trivial souls yearn for supernatural events, incapable of perceiving that everything --everything! --within and around them is pure miracle." Ed Abbey



Being at one with nature is a miracle. However why can't imagination encompass more fanciful ideas as well as the ordinary natural world? I'm an agnostic, and I disagree with this quote in that way.

Jun 19, 2012, 20:27


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Mars Rover
Mars Rover
1337 posts

Re: Atheism

cyberpainter wrote:
Mars Rover wrote:
and to quote my favorite philosopher:

"If a voice from the clouds suddenly addressed me, speaking my name in trombone tones, or some angel suddenly addressed me in an aura of blue flame came floating toward me...I think I would be more embarrassed than frightened --frightened by the vulgarity of such a display. That is what depresses me about the mysticism of Carlos Castaneda and his like: their poverty of imagination. As any honest magician knows, true magic inheres in the ordinary, the commonplace, the everyday, the mystery of the obvious. Only petty minds and trivial souls yearn for supernatural events, incapable of perceiving that everything --everything! --within and around them is pure miracle." Ed Abbey



Being at one with nature is a miracle. However why can't imagination encompass more fanciful ideas as well as the ordinary natural world? I'm an agnostic, and I disagree with this quote in that way.


of course imagination can, but i think you're thinking of what he said in the wrong context. he's just taking a shot at the people who think of god in this cliche supernatural form. he was a fiction writer as well as a non fiction writer, so of course he believes in imagination.

Jun 19, 2012, 20:43


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Kazak
Kazak
1618 posts

Re: Atheism

Mars Rover wrote:
i don't know that we need to "have" anything. i'm doing ok without it i think. everyone has something that motivates them. make your family and friends your religion. make your hobbies a cathartic release. i get lost in the woods and feel its better than any church. when i'm there i wonder why anyone needs to go to one. to each their own however.




I really didn't phrase that part of my post very well. I was about to scrap the whole thing, and then just thought, fuck it, and hit "Add Reply." What I was trying to get at was more like this: if one rejects theism, what does that make one? An atheist.

Jun 19, 2012, 22:27


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k.
k.
407 posts

Re: Atheism

It is kind of hard to make a case for predestination in the reality that is free will. Somehow time is the problem within our definitions, since we are pretty much limited to linear measurements. Were it not so, we might perceive that many of the tenets we work to define are indeed "not mutually exclusive".
-k.

Jun 20, 2012, 04:52


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cyberpainter
cyberpainter
5926 posts

Re: Atheism

Mars Rover wrote:
cyberpainter wrote:
Mars Rover wrote:
and to quote my favorite philosopher:

"If a voice from the clouds suddenly addressed me, speaking my name in trombone tones, or some angel suddenly addressed me in an aura of blue flame came floating toward me...I think I would be more embarrassed than frightened --frightened by the vulgarity of such a display. That is what depresses me about the mysticism of Carlos Castaneda and his like: their poverty of imagination. As any honest magician knows, true magic inheres in the ordinary, the commonplace, the everyday, the mystery of the obvious. Only petty minds and trivial souls yearn for supernatural events, incapable of perceiving that everything --everything! --within and around them is pure miracle." Ed Abbey



Being at one with nature is a miracle. However why can't imagination encompass more fanciful ideas as well as the ordinary natural world? I'm an agnostic, and I disagree with this quote in that way.


of course imagination can, but i think you're thinking of what he said in the wrong context. he's just taking a shot at the people who think of god in this cliche supernatural form. he was a fiction writer as well as a non fiction writer, so of course he believes in imagination.



I know much of religion seems cliche and full of superstition. But I actually was talking about god or spirituality in my response. The "what ifs" are pretty endless.

Jun 20, 2012, 06:19


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The Greatest
The Greatest
309 posts

Re: Atheism

Kazak wrote:
(Sorry, about the dupe thread, actually sort of wanted to discuss this...)

The problem is, theism doesn't exactly jive with evolution, yes? Well, hell, neither does non-geocentrism! If one loses theism, or never has it, what is one left with? But, it is!

(I, personally, do not think theism and religion are mutually exclusive.)


There are other ways of believing in God besides theism. One is called panentheism, and this is the way of believing that allows for evolution. It is the belief that people and the universe are in God and God is in them, but that God is also more than everything in the universe.

Sort of like when you take some ocean water and put it in a cup. The ocean is in the cup, but the cup does not contain the ocean.

Jun 20, 2012, 15:24


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Kazak
Kazak
1618 posts

Re: Atheism

Why does one need God in this sense? I really want to know, it's superfluous. What's wrong with the universe itself? Also, what tangible thing would lead an intellectually honest person to this belief? Occam's razor...

Jun 20, 2012, 15:34


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The Greatest
The Greatest
309 posts

Re: Atheism

Kazak wrote:
Why does one need God in this sense? I really want to know, it's superfluous. What's wrong with the universe itself? Also, what tangible thing would lead an intellectually honest person to this belief? Occam's razor...


Let me start by saying I'm completely fine with atheists and atheism, as long as they are not hateful and reactionary. The same goes for Christians.

Ritual is powerful and transformative, and so is myth, because it touches our experience on a deep level and is universally true. Also, there are very real spiritual energies that can be experienced through sacraments. One doesn't "need" God because one is a god, in my opinion. Not THE God, but in God, and created in his likeness and iamge.

If you want to live a good life and not talk about God or believe in God, I still believe you are "saved." Not that there is actually anything to be saved from except ignorance.

For me, belief in God is an acknowledgement that what I see is not all there is. I am only one person with a limited perspective and consciousness. God is all consciousness.

Jun 20, 2012, 15:40


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Kazak
Kazak
1618 posts

Re: Atheism

The Greatest wrote:
Kazak wrote:
Why does one need God in this sense? I really want to know, it's superfluous. What's wrong with the universe itself? Also, what tangible thing would lead an intellectually honest person to this belief? Occam's razor...


Let me start by saying I'm completely fine with atheists and atheism, as long as they are not hateful and reactionary. The same goes for Christians.

Ritual is powerful and transformative, and so is myth, because it touches our experience on a deep level and is universally true. Also, there are very real spiritual energies that can be experienced through sacraments. One doesn't "need" God because one is a god, in my opinion. Not THE God, but in God, and created in his likeness and iamge.

If you want to live a good life and not talk about God or believe in God, I still believe you are "saved." Not that there is actually anything to be saved from except ignorance.

For me, belief in God is an acknowledgement that what I see is not all there is. I am only one person with a limited perspective and consciousness. God is all consciousness.


For the record, I too participate in ritual self-sacrifice. I too experience reverent awe and wonder at the mystery of nature, of the totality of existence. I just don't claim it know its name.

Jun 20, 2012, 15:55


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The Greatest
The Greatest
309 posts

Re: Atheism

Kazak wrote:
The Greatest wrote:
Kazak wrote:
Why does one need God in this sense? I really want to know, it's superfluous. What's wrong with the universe itself? Also, what tangible thing would lead an intellectually honest person to this belief? Occam's razor...


Let me start by saying I'm completely fine with atheists and atheism, as long as they are not hateful and reactionary. The same goes for Christians.

Ritual is powerful and transformative, and so is myth, because it touches our experience on a deep level and is universally true. Also, there are very real spiritual energies that can be experienced through sacraments. One doesn't "need" God because one is a god, in my opinion. Not THE God, but in God, and created in his likeness and iamge.

If you want to live a good life and not talk about God or believe in God, I still believe you are "saved." Not that there is actually anything to be saved from except ignorance.

For me, belief in God is an acknowledgement that what I see is not all there is. I am only one person with a limited perspective and consciousness. God is all consciousness.


For the record, I too participate in ritual self-sacrifice. I too experience reverent awe and wonder at the mystery of nature, of the totality of existence. I just don't claim it know its name.


Neither do I, actually. No one religion (or non-religion) holds the complete truth. And I should probably refer to God as He/She/It. I just prefer traditional language.

Jun 20, 2012, 16:18

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