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2012 Election Predictions?
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Re: 2012 Election Predictions?

Kazak wrote:
why would I choose to address them considering the way you've chosen to respond to others who've attempted,

Now to be fair, I was a bit abrupt with Matthew because he didn't appear to have engaged with what I had said, so sorry to you, Matthew. I was annoyed at cyberpainter so you copped a terse reply too. It is not really an excuse so sorry.

But I hardly think cyberpainter attempted to respond in anything but an abusive way, Kazak. It astounds me the support she gets when her post was simply a personal insult in response to something that I said that did not personally attack anyone. Obviously other people have different boundaries when it comes to loyalty to friends. I cannot see myself ever supporting a friend who simply sets out to insult somebody else. I realise there are many forumites who disagree with this and will support cyberpainter no matter what bullying she comes up with. Nobody could justify her reply, not even cyberpainter herself and yet she gets off scot free and I get the jeers. Well, each to their own.

Anyway, I did put a bit of thought into my post about democracy so I would be keen to hear what others actually think about it. I don't know that the opinion is my truth but I like the idea of straying from the everyday and exploring possibilities. Human beings are interesting and somewhat dysfunctional and yet we rely on them to make important decisions.

I have often thought about democracy when it comes to other complicated things. We don't design TVs via democracy. Nor do we build houses that way. We get experts. Yet when it comes to things like women's rights, the design has to be popular. When it comes to saving the planet, majority rules. Mill's point about the tyranny of the masses came to mind, hence the post.

I also think in relation to Matthew's point about wealth that we often think things work because of democracy. And yet, the very wealth the west enjoys appears to come from invasion, genocide, prejudicial trade barriers, over-exploitation of the planet and the continuing existence of the working poor (either locally or globally).

I also think about countries that are wealthy despite the lack of democracy (China, Saudi Arabia and even India as its democracy is so obviously corrupt). I would be curious to hear why people think democracy creates wealth.

And finally, I think the destructive nature of people, generally the poor is the elephant in the room. Even conservatives mask their discussion of poorer people under a kind of Marxist or utilitarian logic that supposes the their policies are the best thing for everybody as opposed to simply those who work hard. The question I have is why we think things will work when we know that the provision of goods to people does not necessarily provide improvement. Check out government housing in western democracies and you will see that it is often trashed and neglected. Now some could say that it is the fault of the government but ultimately, a person only lives once and they have to take responsibility if the government will not. If people are given houses then they should look after them. If people are given unslashed train seats then they should not slash them...but they do. People break street lights, people abuse teachers in public schools, people smash bottles on the road and litter their own street. So what do we do about this? It is a fantasy to think that simply increasing wealth or access to facilities will change things. I like - to some extent- the Black Panther or Hamas logic that says that people have to look out for themselves.

So of course, people will vote for Romney or Obama and they may think something will change but I don't agree. If we take gay rights, obviously Obama is pushing in the right direction but the change is very slow. Gay people have had to protest, die, lobby and so on for such a long time to get some change. My point to consider was (and not it was just a consideration, cyberpainter) whether democracy is indeed the best system to bring about that change. Whether asking every idiot to agree that as a human being you can marry your chosen partner is indeed sensible.

Nov 05, 2012, 08:22


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