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101
484 posts

Re: Shopping and dropping

In fact i wouldn't skimp on anything. It's true, we are just one in billions, insignificant, and "every vote counts" is laughable. "Everyone should do their bit" is a lie, good if you can but we're not wired that way, most of us. It's completely rational to do what you want and irrational to do what you "should" when most are oblivious. But irrational people change things, for better and worse, hopefully more for better than worse.

Jan 20, 2013, 01:40


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101
484 posts

Re: Shopping and dropping

GaryB2 wrote:
I'm excited to see what country will supply the cheap labour once China's workers start demanding a fair wage.


China is full of people getting seriously agitated about the lack of labour/environmental laws, despite the risks they take by standing up to their leaders. The main manufacturing province in China, forget the name, was set to go off (apparently, T/F i don't know) and the local govt officials wanted to allow unions and set some basic standards, and guess what, western corporations lobbyed like crazy to stop it. I;m sick of these amoral money-making monsters that have more power (though hidden) than most the countries in this world shitting on anything even remotely decent or fair. Again, what the hell do we do?
But depending on where you get your news, China is also full of people so happy to have jobs, thank you western consumers. And lots of benevolent Chinese billionaires too.

Jan 20, 2013, 02:03


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cyberpainter
cyberpainter
5926 posts

Re: Shopping and dropping

101 wrote:
I know, me too. But you're talking about the individualist response we've all been brainwashed with. It's an odious lie - just inform all the consumers (yeah right) and trust they will make the right decision as individuals. It's complete bs. Everyone knows they should take the bus or whatever but that entails an immediate sacrifice for me and an immediate benefit for you - it's not gonna happen. I've done the opt-out thing but that only gets us so far; need to actually challenge it. So I think those of us that actually give a shit need to start rarking things up a bit. For me Occupy is a really promising movement; that's why it's dismissed with such scorn. It's a threat, or a potential threat. We need to get together the hard, old-fashioned way and make our voices heard. That's always been the most/only effective way, get the rabble on the streets. But we're all too busy with our entertainment? Amusing ourselves to death?


Well I take action in my own way with continually trying to learn and read and let others know what I have learned. I do what I feel I can, even if I'm not out there on the street with occupy or another movement. People have various abilities to filter what they feel is "true" from what is what you call brainwashing. We all filter through our own experiences and biases, but if you have a rational mind and use it on a regular basis, hopefully you can make some headway, no pun intended.

Jan 20, 2013, 04:55


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Normsk
Normsk
318 posts

Re: Shopping and dropping

GaryB2 wrote:
I hate how companies shut up shop here to reopen in India, or whatever. Good riddance you greedy cun*s, hope your business fails!


My sentiments exactly. Here in Swindon Honda have just announced they are shedding 1,100 jobs. I'm guessing it won't be long before they close the factory and move production abroad.

Jan 20, 2013, 17:29


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s_lush_s
s_lush_s
7383 posts

Re: Shopping and dropping

What's do you mean by that? I drink it at home caffeine because it's cheaper. The water bill is high because I try to drink alkaline water. I drink one water named Crazy Water. It has lithium in it. Ha! Yeah, they say drink water with a high ph for your blood I forgot which part It keeps the blood from becoming acidosis (I can't spell).

Jan 20, 2013, 21:16


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101
484 posts

Re: Shopping and dropping

i'm trying to copy Voltaire, he drank 60 cups of coffee a day, not making that up either, that's why he was so brainy. Alkaline water sounds scary. I heard about the alkaline diet, everything that is acidic is bad and alkaline foods are good. I don't know why. I think coffee is acid, so I'm ignoring it. Excessive attention to health is life's greatest hindrance. I think Socrates said that, one of those dead Greeks anyway.

Jan 21, 2013, 05:50


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101
484 posts

Re: Shopping and dropping

cyberpainter wrote:
101 wrote:
I know, me too. But you're talking about the individualist response we've all been brainwashed with. It's an odious lie - just inform all the consumers (yeah right) and trust they will make the right decision as individuals. It's complete bs. Everyone knows they should take the bus or whatever but that entails an immediate sacrifice for me and an immediate benefit for you - it's not gonna happen. I've done the opt-out thing but that only gets us so far; need to actually challenge it. So I think those of us that actually give a shit need to start rarking things up a bit. For me Occupy is a really promising movement; that's why it's dismissed with such scorn. It's a threat, or a potential threat. We need to get together the hard, old-fashioned way and make our voices heard. That's always been the most/only effective way, get the rabble on the streets. But we're all too busy with our entertainment? Amusing ourselves to death?


Well I take action in my own way with continually trying to learn and read and let others know what I have learned. I do what I feel I can, even if I'm not out there on the street with occupy or another movement. People have various abilities to filter what they feel is "true" from what is what you call brainwashing. We all filter through our own experiences and biases, but if you have a rational mind and use it on a regular basis, hopefully you can make some headway, no pun intended.


Oh dear, no revolutionaries on the Stereolab forum, what's up with that?? Got my work cut out. We've had a long enough experiment on the laissez-faire economic model, don't you think? I thought the financial meltdown would spell its end. It hasn't; we bailed it out, and govt services are being shredded to pay for it, and it's as strong as ever. Our greenhouse gas emissions are still rising, 40% or so above 1990 levels. We should be seriously worried about this. Anyone who pays attention to these things should be realising that our representatives are not going to do anything until we tell them to. You can put true in quotation marks if you like but come on, how wierd does the weather have to get and how much data do we need? Saying "truth is relative" is a cop-out sorry to say, and is intellectually lazy. We don't need any more studies. We need to act on what we already know. We're headed for a world of 10 billion plus people in the next few decades. These idiots get all excited about the prospect of new Asian consumers living like us. I'm not. Taking action in your own way is admirable, I try to do that too, and it's not enough, because nothing of consequence has ever changed through individuals reading books, talking with friends, and doing their own thing. It's only the start of the process - and don't believe it's anything other than that. And yes, that's just my opinion isn't it? But I think it's backed by the evidence. Look at how workers gained basic rights after the laissez-faire of the industrial revolution, for example. There are many more.
It's divide and rule - and boy, are we ever divided. Atomised and individualised. Time for the pendulum to swing back. What do you think.

Jan 21, 2013, 06:14


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cyberpainter
cyberpainter
5926 posts

Re: Shopping and dropping

What do you do 101? I've been to plenty of protests over the years, though I haven't been out on the street for quite a long while. Somehow protests around here seem to get out of hand and don't accomplish much at this point in time. I was rooting for the occupy movement but locally it strayed from a path I agreed with, or just was more chaotic. I always vote, sign scads of petitions, contribute, write to a dozen or so politicians a year about my views, continually spout off to others and write about my views, try to educate myself, live my life in as good a way as I can.

If you want to get more politically active than that, say exactly what it is you're doing, instead of criticizing me. Go out and fight for your issues by joining a group that has a plan, or whatever you want to do. I belong to quite a few, contribute a little money to those I think have the right ideas and approach. Can't afford much at the moment though. So tell us what you are doing.

I know politics and different issues can seem hopeless and discouraging, but the more you learn, the more you understand the big picture down to the smaller details. The more people know, the less they make generalizations and lump a variety of things together.

Jan 21, 2013, 08:38


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101
484 posts

Re: Shopping and dropping

cyberpainter wrote:
What do you do 101? I've been to plenty of protests over the years, though I haven't been out on the street for quite a long while. Somehow protests around here seem to get out of hand and don't accomplish much at this point in time. I was rooting for the occupy movement but locally it strayed from a path I agreed with, or just was more chaotic. I always vote, sign scads of petitions, contribute, write to a dozen or so politicians a year about my views, continually spout off to others and write about my views, try to educate myself, live my life in as good a way as I can.

If you want to get more politically active than that, say exactly what it is you're doing, instead of criticizing me. Go out and fight for your issues by joining a group that has a plan, or whatever you want to do. I belong to quite a few, contribute a little money to those I think have the right ideas and approach. Can't afford much at the moment though. So tell us what you are doing.

I know politics and different issues can seem hopeless and discouraging, but the more you learn, the more you understand the big picture down to the smaller details. The more people know, the less they make generalizations and lump a variety of things together.


What you're doing is great, and I didn't mean to critisize you personally. It's hard to communicate like this, I'm not actually this foaming at the mouth radical that I might come across as in my rantings. I'm a mild person in reality, but I am passionate about these things, I am worried, and I think we can do better than this. I understand why things are the way they are I think - people just slot into systems becasue they know they can take the moral highgound, but that will be career suicide or whatever for them and there's 100 other people lining up to take their place. So they go along with it, if you can't beat 'em join 'em.

I just don't think what we're doing is enough. I don't know what to do, actually. There are too few of us. We need to popularise this, instead of it being just a few people who actually take the time to write to politicians or whatever. Does it actually change anything? To me it's just a few little crumbs are tossed here and there but the fundamentals go unchallenged. I'm talking about our entire economic system, I guess - I think that is the root of the problem, and it's what needs to be taken on. It won't happen without a massive popular movement I don't think - it's too entrenched. There are economists saying much the same thing - Amartya Sen, and Mohammed Unis, and Paul Krugman; they have Nobel Prizes and are critical of this radical capitalist system we find ourselves in (I don't think I'm radical at all - the world around me seems what's really radical). www.paecon.net and www.adbusters.org both are sites that talk about an alternative form of economics. Some economists call what is normal business practise today "ecocide", and say it should be regarded as a crime. I agree. Intergenerational theft; using up the natural capital of the earth in a selfish, greedy short-term quest for maximum profits, and to hell with future generations.

I found myself on the forum by accident really, I thought why not raise a few of these things, Stereolab is rather political after all. I don't know what the point is, we can blather away all we want but at some point we actually have to say enough is enough. Or carry on the way we are and life will go on, won't it? The Way Will be Opening, that's the idea. I studied science and I don't want to be yet another person doing their job, studying the world to death. Many scientists at Rio last year were disgusted at what happened - and then went back to their jobs, amassing more data. I wish they'd go on strike, but we've all got bills to pay, eh? Who's gonna go first? (The Coordination Problem - the first to take action is in a vulnerable position; it's fine if everyone joins in, but if not you're screwed).

So I don't know what I'm doing on this forum. i thought why not, wherever there are people, is where these ideas can be raised. But I should stick to political places, not music places, maybe.

Jan 24, 2013, 07:13


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cyberpainter
cyberpainter
5926 posts

Re: Shopping and dropping

Calling people to action won't really work on here necessarily, but giving your opinion is cool like anyone elses.

Jan 24, 2013, 08:02

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