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Is Obama the Antichrist?
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Re: Is Obama the Antichrist?

Well that's my point innit? DevasatorJr said that he couldn't understand how so called Christians who were supposed to be righteous & good could beleive in such petty & evil stuff... or something like that. My response was to that statement. Mankind, regardless of what they believe can generally be extremely destructive & evil... & they were just a couple of examples that sprung to mind. Christians would argue that god recognises this as a reality & addresses it. They don't make it up, but they have to live with it.

Mar 24, 2009, 09:54


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Re: Is Obama the Antichrist?

Sorry, just trying to cover all bases there. You said "If you tell this to a fundamentalist (which I'm not) They will think you are crazy" (which I don't).

Mar 24, 2009, 09:56


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Re: Is Obama the Antichrist?

Er... no, I'm a human being. The old pre-destination argument however is something I think independently on & would never claim the name of somebody elses ideas on such matters. I don't think things are as simple or as black & white in that respect.

Mar 24, 2009, 09:59


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Re: Is Obama the Antichrist?

You may be right, or you may be wrong. I'm inclined to agree with you to a certain extent, but prophecy is a profound subject & I agree that people who think it 'predicts the future' are not addressing the whole concept or purpose of prophetic writing. Anyway - this was simply a response to Killashandra's post about Obama being good & popular.

Mar 24, 2009, 10:04


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Re: Is Obama the Antichrist?

Whoa, where do I start... I'll have to skim subjects here. First of all the Papacy gained absolute power over the dying Empire (which before that time was given to the Emperor which declared them as divine) by forging a lie. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation_of_Constantine

The Pope calls himself the Holy Father & has complete power, without question, to act as he sees fit. Jesus Christ's teaching is clearly & vehemently opposed to this kind of behaviour & he states to his disciples to call nobody on earth 'father', but your father in heaven. Practices are not Biblical - Christening? Confirmation? Worship of Mary? Materialistic obsession? Acts during sacramental practice? confession to a priest? Celebacy? Idolatry of 'saints'? etc... etc... etc... Nowhere in scripture. In fact many Roman Catholic acts of 'worship' can be traced back to the Pagan Religions of Ancient Canaan & Babylon. There are many proven similarities or downright duplications of practices by Pagan Religions before them - which were of course condemned by the god of the Jewish Tanakh - Yahweh. This is interesting as it exposes Biblical prophecy, in some respects as being timeless... but that's another story.

The above is simply put, I understand that, but these subjects have been studied & if one looks at scripture & understands the spiritual aspect of it, then observes Roman Catholic practice, it becomes very quickly apparent that they do not follow, nor do they understand the meaning of scripture. They are interested in maintaining power over men. It is notable that in times past the 'Church' would rely on the science of the day & popular philosophical beliefs to explain the nature of physics, chemistry & biology. These sources would include Greek philosophers such as Aristotle etc. They were not inclined to search the Bible for answers, nor would they understand Biblical teaching. But, being as they claimed to represent god, the majority of people had no choice to believe that if that's what the Catholic Church thought, then that's what god thought.

I think a lot of Protestants probably do think how you explain, those that do not study the roots of thier 'religion'. I would say however that the whole point of the Protestant Reformation was to break from the Roman Catholic Church & follow 'Sola Scriptura' (scripture alone). This would allow ordinary man (eventually) to see the errors of RC when held up to the scrutiny of scripture. So, I agree, many Protestant Churches do maintain many RC practices, but I have interviewd many CofE members who have absolutely no idea what the Bible says, & lack any form of Biblical teaching. These people, well, they are following religion, not god.

In word, maybe RC claims to follow Biblical Principles. But in deed the reality is very different. The New Testament constantly warns of false teaching & the perversion of god's word.

Mar 24, 2009, 10:51


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Re: Is Obama the Antichrist?

1. Yes, Christianity took on a structure assimilated from the Roman Empire, but it is not an extension of that empire in the sense that the empire came before it. Early Christianity was coexistent with Rome but did not originate from it. In many respects, the Romanization of Christianity led to corruption.

2. I am certainly with you on denouncing materialism. However, as you yourself point out, basing one's religion on "scripture alone" was a later reformation of Protestantism, so I don't think we can denounce the Romans for not doing that since they came first and invented the wheel--especially since scripture contradicts itself, and, while divinely inspired, was written by fallible men who sometimes were flat out wrong on certain things.

3. As far as pagan practices, the Bible says Melchizedek (a pagan) and Abraham worshipped the same "most high God." There are also other notable holy pagans, such as Noah, Daniel (who was an astrologer) and Job. The New Testament as well shows how Christians reached out to the Gentiles (pagans) and adapted their preaching styles in order to convert them (St. Paul wanted to become "all things to all men" so that he could convert "some.") Also, if not for Greek philosophy, the New Testament would not even exist. We would not have ideas such as the Logos.

4. The deeds of Protestants are not any more good than those of Rome. In fact, Jesus himself said that no one is good but the Father in heaven. He included himself in that. Protestants such as George W. Bush are responsible for war and negligent environmental policy.

5. It's interesting how many Protestants claim to be "literalists," yet they view Communion as symbolic when Christ states plainly "This is my blood" and "This is my body." You can't get more literal than that.

6. I'm not Roman Catholic (just wanted to say it again).

Mar 24, 2009, 13:13


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1371 posts

Re: Is Obama the Antichrist?

And a couple of footnotes...

A. Catholics don't worship saints as "idols." They worship God. Saints intercede for the person who prays. The prayer is offered to God.

B. Any time you see a statue of Jesus in front of a church, or a nativity scene at Christmas, you are witnessing a "graven image."

Mar 24, 2009, 13:23


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Re: Is Obama the Antichrist?

1. We're not talking about true followers of the christ though, I thought we were talking about Roman Catholicism? The Roman Empire did everything it could to banish the early Christian Church. Crucifying & executing multitudes of followers of the Christ. Yes, I agree, in many ways the Romanization of Christianity did lead to corruption, that is what I'm saying. In my view all religion is corrupt, by it's very nature.

2. I'm not sure I understand you here. Scripture was sacred to the Jews. That surely is where christianity is fundamentally rooted. I don't understand this: "so I don't think we can denounce the Romans for not doing that since they came first and invented the wheel." Rome & those who desired power controlled the freedom of scripture until the reformation. Does scripture contradict itself? Where are these 'flat out' errors? These are genuine questions.

3. Melchizidek was a mysterious figure. The Scripture has never reffered to him as a pagan. He may well have been a gentile, but how could he possibly have been a pagan & worshipped the same most high god as Abraham? The definition of Paganism is one who worships the created matter. That pretty much rules out the other Biblical men who you have named as pagans. Noah was not a Jew, or one of Israle, simply because the nation had not been started within his lifetime. Daniel was a Jew, living in captivity in Babylon. He may have studied the stars, but that doesn't make him a Pagan, as Genesis points out - the stars are for signs & seasons. I don't think one can credit Greek Philosophy with New Testament writing. Paul denounces philosophy in his letters, & tells the church to look to nothing else but Christ.

4. I completely agree with you. I apologise if I gave the impression that Protestants were somehow 'better' than anybody else. One must beware however of those who claim to be representatives of god. Always measure them - by their fruits they shall be known.

5. I agree. I think the truth of being a literalst is pretty daft. One has to discern scripture & read all things in context. If scripture was all to be taken literally, then there would be a lot of blind & handless people in this world, not to mention all sorts of other things. Personally I beleive the sacrament of communion to be a physical act that brings a believer to a spiritual place. I think any living person can see that this sun disc shaped piece of bread is not the 'real' flesh of a man, nor is the wine 'real' blood from a man.

6. I beleive you my friend. I don't think it matters whether or not you are anyway. I don't have a problem with things like that.

Footnotes: Jesus Christ intercedes for men. He is the only & perfect mediator between men & god. The Bible goes to great lengths to make this clear. Nobody else can do this, or is worthy of such a task.

I agree - graven images all over the place. They take focus away from the spiritual truth of god.

Mar 24, 2009, 15:15


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Re: Is Obama the Antichrist?

1. I would say it is dogmatism that corrupts, not religion. One can be involved in a non-dogmatic church, although they are rare. And yes, I'm no fan of Irenaeus or Athanasius. The formation of the canon was arbitrary and did away with valid Gnostic systems such as the Valentinians, whose theory of divine emanations stemmed from the teachings of Philo and the Jewish Kabbalah.

2. Controlling the freedom of scripture is wrong. I think the translation into English was necessary. However, while I prefer the KJV for its poetry, in some places the translation is misleading or incorrect. And yes, for example, get a Gospel parallels book and view the text side by side, and you'll see how they don't line up and each tell a different story. As for scripture being "flat out wrong," take for instance the commandment that we take our children outside city limits and stone them to death if they disobey.

3. Pagans referred to the Jewish God as the "most high god," which reflected their understanding that the Jews just had "one god" that was above all other gods. When Melchizedek raised his hands to the "most high god," he was recognizing Abraham's god. Since Christ is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, this means his sacrifice was offered for all mankind, not only the Jews. Job was not an Israelite. He was from the land of Hus, a pagan land. Daniel is debatable. He was proficient in pagan practices. And, St. Paul borrows from Greek philosophy frequently in his letters and theology. And as I pointed out, the Logos (Word of God) is a Greek idea.

4. I also believe Communion is a physical act that takes one to a spiritual place...but I believe that while the bread (which is called the accident) doesn't change, the substance (what is "behind" it) does change.

Footnotes, etc. I disagree, and have statuettes in my home. I feel they help to orient me and send positive suggestions to the mind...but I don't bow down and worship them or any such nonsense.

Mar 24, 2009, 16:25


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Re: Is Obama the Antichrist?

Yeah - fair enough.

This is great:

http://www.geocities.com/rebornempowered/priesthood/ch1.htm

Hebrews ch.5-7 deals with Melchizedek. A gentile, maybe, but he's never reffered to as a pagan.

Footnotes: I have some Star Wars figures in my house, a Mandalorian army no less. I don't worship them, good grief, I let my kids play with them.

The problem with idolatry is that it deflects man from trusting god. It places emphasis on matter, & obscures spiritual understanding. One analogy is this:

My son has a model of what he thinks I look like. This model is on his shelf. Every night before he goes to bed he brings this model down from his shelf in order to share his daily problems with it. He cries to it & hugs it. When I come into his room, & ask him if he wants me to read him a story, or listen to his day he completely ignores me & continues talking to the model. No matter what I do I can't get through to him - he has detached himself from me & speaks only to the model, seeking council from an inanimate object. So it is with all created matter. "God is spirit, & his followers must worship in spirit & truth".

Mar 24, 2009, 17:53

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